tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post6157170944006419496..comments2024-03-12T00:12:01.203-04:00Comments on The Old High Churchman: Some thoughts about Morning Prayer+ Peterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15593635840263637835noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-43659225907442651482013-10-11T11:34:39.421-04:002013-10-11T11:34:39.421-04:00I am way late to the party, but I still feel comp...I am way late to the party, but I still feel compelled to remind (or maybe inform) everyone that the Sabbath is by definition the seventh day--Saturday. Sunday is the Lord's Day. (The Gospels are clear that Jesus rose on first day of the week). If the Sabbath is properly observed in the Christian tradition, it is observed on Saturday as a preparation for the Lord's Day; which is by definition not a sombre day, but a feast day.Ryan Matthew Headleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15752861956596680303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-47260079464317925242010-07-28T18:30:12.510-04:002010-07-28T18:30:12.510-04:00Bishop Robinson:
It is so refreshing to read a po...Bishop Robinson:<br /><br />It is so refreshing to read a post from someone who understands the importance of singing (or saying, if you can't sing it) Morning Prayer and Evensong to: 1. the spiritual developement of Christians, and, 2. the importance of the prayer offices to the Anglican tradition.<br /><br />Without Morning Prayer and Evensong, a parish cannot truly claim to be Anglican or claim to follow the Anglican faith as found in the classic BCPs.<br /><br />We sing Morning Prayer from the 1928 BCP each Sunday in our parish prior to Mass. Not all who come to Mass come the 30 minutes early to sing Morning Prayer, but many do, and they seem to receive a spititual benefit from doing so. The parish truly receives a blessing from the faithfulness of its laity joining together to sing and pray.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01838862501450304328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-18001925394112346642010-07-19T15:54:39.740-04:002010-07-19T15:54:39.740-04:00All very well to say so, Fr David, but in reality ...All very well to say so, Fr David, but in reality no Russian is in church for that entire 3 hours. In and out, coming late, leaving early, smoke break during the Alleluia--a much more relaxed attitude to churchgoing than the Western ideal of bums in seats for the duration.palaeologoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01083316937862412507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-22385187200216982002010-07-10T03:31:47.595-04:002010-07-10T03:31:47.595-04:00If we are to recover the fullness of Christian lif...If we are to recover the fullness of Christian life look to the East. We ought to start with a Saturday Evensong, to herald in the Sunday celebration of the Resurrection. On Sunday Matins should be in full with the Litany followed by the Eucharist. We could do as the Russian Church correctly does and have Evensong immediately followed by Matins - the Vigil. <br /><br />Fasting communion should be taught, practised and regularly preached. The Sunday Eucharist should incorporate a decent sermon, and shaving time by shortening anything should be avoided. <br /><br />Finally we ought to end Sunday with a Solemn Evensong, because Sunday is not about an hour to God before we head for Macdonalds. It should be a day for God, and if that means 3 hours of worship and reflection, how much better would the Church be?Deacon Down Underhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14903366446394957630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-7319070189836835352010-06-16T01:02:10.867-04:002010-06-16T01:02:10.867-04:00Simply put, we do Morning Prayer with the psalms a...Simply put, we do Morning Prayer with the psalms appointed for the day at 10 AM. Holy Communion begins at 10:30 and finishes at just before noon. <br /><br />I very much miss evening prayer as a corporate service. I especially miss the censing at the Magnificat, but we have a good way to go before we can have that again.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-50568460518965874002010-06-15T13:28:23.777-04:002010-06-15T13:28:23.777-04:00Several points. For those of us that go back that...Several points. For those of us that go back that far, the 1871 Lectionary to 1662 shortens the lessons when compared to the original 1662, which is but slightly other than the original ones.<br />In the current editions of 1662, both 1871 and 1922 Lectionaries are printed. One is calendar year, the other church year.<br /><br />For most of us, a proper AV with Apocrypha is pricy when we can find it. However, the CBD catalogue lists the old-spelling AV with Apocrypha, which is very affordable. It has the 1604 Lectionary included. Generally speaking, the only AV with Apocrypha easily available is the one bound up with the '28 BCP, available in cloth or leather at a price. Many of our clergy use this, unless they have the Oxford original.<br /><br />We are going to have to wean ourselves off the limited time we are willing to spend in church. After all, we take longer with our Sunday brunch after church. Someone mentioned African-American churches. In the old days out in Indian Country, they'd do the whole accumulated service (Mattins, Litany, Communion) with a decent sermon---and then stay and sing hymns for another couple of hours. Worship is serious business, folks. Maybe we need to get back to our serious worhip and learn the Faith while we're at it.<br />We are all mal-nourished in spiritual things. We do need to get a wholly balanced diet, not just a Minimum Weekly Allowance.<br /><br />In +,<br />BentonBenton H Marderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15859682977804992245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-91421342065341675152010-06-13T17:56:20.934-04:002010-06-13T17:56:20.934-04:00@ Peter,
15 minute sermons? Please. A minimum o...@ Peter,<br /><br />15 minute sermons? Please. A minimum of 30 minutes is required to draw out the meaning of the text and provide an adequate application. If you're not called to preach, retire.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-78548640589398586342010-06-13T17:54:16.753-04:002010-06-13T17:54:16.753-04:00How many churches say the Gloria Patri after every...How many churches say the Gloria Patri after every Psalm? Required in the 1662 BCP.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-21047977866255212102010-06-13T17:53:06.664-04:002010-06-13T17:53:06.664-04:00The biggest problem is that people refuse to obser...The biggest problem is that people refuse to observe the sabbath. It is seen as somehow too legalistic to be asked to sit through Morning Prayer with a full reading of the 1662 Lectionary, the 1662 Morning Prayer AND the 1662 Lord's Supper. And, by the way, the 1662 calls for the reading of the 10 Commandments EVERY time the Lord's Supper is observed. <br /><br />This exhibits a proper presentation of the Law of God with the Gospel. If this were done regularly people would know the Apostle's Creed, the Lord's Prayer, the Ten Commandments and a proper view of the sacraments--all of which are required in the 1662 Catechism which no one uses anymore.<br /><br />Wonder why there is such gross ignorance of the Bible, the Decalogue, the Apostles' Creed, etc.? It's because ministers are too easily swayed into shortening the service rather than being faithful to preach the Gospel.<br /><br />I have been to African American churches where the Sunday services are regularly 2 hours long.<br /><br />How long is your Sunday morning worship? One hour? One hour and 15 minutes? For shame.<br /><br />CharlieCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-73125029340302054362010-06-10T09:05:01.022-04:002010-06-10T09:05:01.022-04:00+Peter: We have Communion music during the actual...+Peter: We have Communion music during the actual Communion of the Faithful and the Communion Hymn is sung by all during the ablutions.Fr. David F. Coadyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09626288794442976748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-65134665460199945652010-06-05T01:19:02.017-04:002010-06-05T01:19:02.017-04:00Tarping can lengthen the service when you have mul...Tarping can lengthen the service when you have multiple chalices, and other complicating factors. This is why I am generally more comfortable doing the ablutions after the blessing. However, I find that in most congregations around here any lengthy pause will inevitably result in someone starting a conversation. This in turn has lead to the custom of singing a hymn during the ablutions which really does lengthen the service. What is it with Low Church congregations and talking?<br /><br />Out of curiosity I asked my wife how long I preach and she says 15-18 minutes. Given that a goodly chunk of the population cannot absorb information unless it is delivered into 8 minute segments divided by commercials, a sixteen minute sermon has already asked them to concentrate twice as long as they are used to doing. I am always a bit conscious of walking a tightrope between what needs to be said, and how long I have before folks switch off. Perhaps you do not have the same concerns.<br /><br />I have to admit that I do my detailed teaching about Scripture in the midweek Bible Study. There I find an imbalance in attendance between when I tackle an OT book and when I tackle an NT book. I usually get twice the attendance at an NT series than an OT series. Any thoughts about that one? I am inclined to see that as a consequence of both Revivalist Dispensationalism, and the lack of coverage gven to the OT since most parishes swapped over to HC as the main service.<br /><br />BTW, the other form of lip service to the OT that one encounters are those parishes where there are three lessons and a psalm, and the parson always preaches on the NT or the Gospel! I grew up in one of those...<br /><br />PD+ Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15593635840263637835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-90578609926729717152010-06-03T23:01:28.046-04:002010-06-03T23:01:28.046-04:00I agree that sermon hymns are a waste of time and ...I agree that sermon hymns are a waste of time and notices are to be eschewed in a time when service leaflets are easy to produce. But why does tarping lengthen the service? I happen to like it, not because it is "Roman," but because it provides a moment of silence for reflection. And a 12 minute sermon?? And we fuss about Biublical illiteracy. I was trained to believe that Sermonettes produce Christianettes. John Stott (in "Between Two Worlds") said there is no absolutely sacrosanct length, but if a sermon is properly prepared it will feel like 17 minutes. I fail to see the value of reading Scripture if you don't expound it.Fr. Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00842080747345893229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-83160704764003686832010-06-03T11:10:23.355-04:002010-06-03T11:10:23.355-04:00When we celebrate Holy Communion preceded by a sho...When we celebrate Holy Communion preceded by a shortened, sung, MP, it takes 70 to 75 minutes, and I usually preach about 12 minutes. That said, I am death to all forms of liturgical time-wasting - sermon hymns, lengthy notices, doing the ablutions in the Roman place, etc., so I probably reclaim about seven minutes that way. I find most folks are OK with an hour and a quarter provided one does not start at 11am. The real pressure seems to be to get done by Noon around here, which probably explains why the main Protestant churches all start their services at 10.30am.+ Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15593635840263637835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-44326596420835312352010-06-03T09:50:23.936-04:002010-06-03T09:50:23.936-04:00Fr. Wells,
Having a strong appreciation for the L...Fr. Wells,<br /><br />Having a strong appreciation for the Lutheran Liturgy, I have looked towards a two year lectionary based on the one year where, in year one, an OT lection and the historic Gospel are proclaimed, and where, in year two, a NT lection and the historic Gospel are proclaimed. Thus, the gospel is the same from year to year, but the reading alternates. With that, I would want to provide proper Introits and Graduals, simiar to the work in the IAC-Canada Synod's 1991 BCP. <br /><br />The LCMS recently published a new liturgy book with an updated 1 year lectionary that is really good, and provides tighter thematic unity among the readings. I am working to blend this and the historic BCP lectionary together for use in my parish.<br /><br />Rob+Bishop Robert Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264379235175793061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-65646728030533355102010-06-03T07:26:07.431-04:002010-06-03T07:26:07.431-04:00As far as Daily Office lectionaries go, my persona...As far as Daily Office lectionaries go, my personal favorite is that in the 1929 Proposed Book. Far more systematic than that in our 1943, and also stays closer to the historic liturgical kalendar. One of its advantages is that the Evening OT lessons frequently continue the Morning lessons, without as nearly much of the "cut and paste" approach already noted by Bp Robinson.<br /><br />As far as the original topic is concerned, I cannot think of a perfect solution. Our options are limited.<br />(1) Holy Communion exclusively, with no OT reading.<br />That's Marcionite.<br />(2) Holy Communion exclusively, with OT reading and possibly a Psalm inserted. That's irrubrical and violates the integrity of our rite.<br />(3) "MP & Sermon" two or three Sundays each month. That's a 19th century invention which tends toward a low sacramental spirituality and "broad church" theology.<br />(4) MP with all psalms and both lessons said before Mass, either early Low Mass or later Choral Eucharist. That's just going through the motions and helpful only to a handful.<br />(5) Abbreviated MP following the opening hymn. That lengthens the liturgy beyond what people tolerate and defeats the whole purpose by cutting in to preaching time.<br /><br />So what to do? Perhaps the best solution is to make heavy use of the OT as preaching texts and sermon illustrations. Merely reading from the OT is no guarantee that people will really appropriate it. And I continue to feel that we need to take a second look at the lectionary issued by the Holy See. It has its imperfections, which can be tweaked. But the common criticism that it is too sharp a break with tradition does not square with the facts. As Chesterton said concerning Christianity, "It has not been tried and found wrong, but has been found hard and not tried," I would apply that epigram to the lectionary question.<br />LKWFr. Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00842080747345893229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-86856807228487852382010-06-03T01:38:43.223-04:002010-06-03T01:38:43.223-04:00My biggest gripe about the 1943 Lectionary is that...My biggest gripe about the 1943 Lectionary is that the Old Testament is read in a supposed chronological order pieced together according to the theories of the 1930s, and is often quite "bitty" in its selections - the infamous "Ch 7, vv. 1-5, 7, 13, 17-19" method of reading. As I tend to prefer the weekday lectionary to read through books chapter by chapter, I find this approach highly unsatisfactory. OTOH, the Sunday lectionary should deal with the essential passages. Both the 1871 and 1928 Lectionaries do this quite well, but the 1943 version tends to (over) sanitize the OT, and omit controversial passages from the NT. I assume this was in line with the prevailing liberal theology of the day, the 1920s being the Bethune Baker/Charles Raven era of Liberal Protestantism.+ Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15593635840263637835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-18285973364369736472010-06-02T20:46:00.552-04:002010-06-02T20:46:00.552-04:00To Reformation -- the folks at St. Michael's C...To Reformation -- the folks at St. Michael's Cornhill are solid! Bless 'em! My favorite London parish!<br /><br />To Anglican Rose, in re the lectionaries: the rector of St. Luke's Fredericksburg has convinced me of the superiority of the original 1928 lectionary vis a vis the revised 1943 lectionary. The latter stripped out a great deal of substantive OT content -- he finds in this a (perhaps unconscious) reflection of the Marcionite/Anti-Semetic inter-war era....Rappahannock Revhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11932696911399417614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-80907697060536974632010-06-02T10:25:31.389-04:002010-06-02T10:25:31.389-04:00Hello Bishop Robinson,
I found the 1928 lectiona...Hello Bishop Robinson, <br /><br />I found the 1928 lectionary in pdf at <br />http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/BCP_1928.htm under the form "concerning church services". <br /><br />Is there any particular reason you believe the 1928 or 1871 lectionaries to be superior? I tried writing about the history of the lectionary, being curious on how much it changed since 1549, its origins, etc.. I would be interested in learning more. I don't really like the RCL that has sprung from liberal ecumenicalism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-50792096748526748982010-06-02T02:42:05.206-04:002010-06-02T02:42:05.206-04:00Generally speaking the omission of MP and EP in ma...Generally speaking the omission of MP and EP in many parishes has contributed to Biblical Illiteracy. However, I do not think it is as important a factor as the fact that the laity are not exhorted often enough to read the Bible regularly at home with the help of a good commentary.<br /><br />The BCP pattern of worship is indeed MP, Litany, Communion and EP. The American Church allows the omission of the Litany, but not MP and EP. Even in those parishes where HC is the habitual main service, MP should be said immediate before the Communion Service and the people encouraged to attend. I would also encourge parishes to use the 1928 Lectionary (or that of 1871) not that of 1943. I think EP is a lost cause for the time being in many parishes, but I think bishops should remind the clergy about the importance of the Daily Office in Anglican tradition. Paradoxically, one of the unpleasant side effects of loosing MP and EP as major service in the Church has been a significant erosion of the Anglican tradition in our parishes.<br /><br />+PDR+ Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15593635840263637835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-7060006355590879512010-06-01T05:35:29.785-04:002010-06-01T05:35:29.785-04:00Missed a couple of "?" in the above rema...Missed a couple of "?" in the above remarks.<br /><br />Also, have found a 1662 BCP service in London. St. Michael's, Cornhill. http://www.st-michaels.org.uk/ They have a solid appreciation of the parish and cathedral traditions in music. <br /><br />God willing, in a few years, may move to Cambridge for a few years. For the sake of health, I cannot worship in non-liturgical houses of worship.<br /><br />Regards.Reformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-6502951064490133022010-06-01T05:31:05.093-04:002010-06-01T05:31:05.093-04:00Peter:
1. On a 1662 BCP model, my understanding i...Peter:<br /><br />1. On a 1662 BCP model, my understanding is that on a given Sunday, it is the Morning Prayer, Litany and Holy Communion. Is that so as a matter of history<br /><br />2. While complaints have been made in the past re: the length of lections in the 1662 BCP, I find that a commendation rather than a fault. As such, I use the 1662 BCP over the 1928.<br /><br />3. Without the Morning and Evening Prayer, is it your view that this has contributed to biblical illiteracy.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />PhilipReformationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06818168068978748081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-65493250829956050952010-05-31T18:11:13.298-04:002010-05-31T18:11:13.298-04:00Well said. While MP should usually be a brief, ea...Well said. While MP should usually be a brief, early service, when it comes to Sundays, I believe that the parish pastor must exercise sound judgment regarding both order and length of services. Indeed, the mechanical following of any particular rule or law in this matter strikes me as a sure fire recipe for spiritual malaise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com