tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post7798232492354173715..comments2024-03-12T00:12:01.203-04:00Comments on The Old High Churchman: Some Thoughts on Episcopacy+ Peterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15593635840263637835noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-19152124814964433692010-12-20T00:26:59.091-05:002010-12-20T00:26:59.091-05:00Sadly, I don't see any change being possible. ...Sadly, I don't see any change being possible. The clericalism runs too deep. We of the laity are just there to pay the bills for them from what I can see. And the priest, nor the bishop, even care that over 50% of the members have left in the last year for similar reasons that distress me.<br /><br />I have decided to go back to the Methodist Church. Modern Methodism isn't perfect, but at least the people are treated as equals and not as servants to be ordered about by the clergy. I have found a small, traditional Methodist Church that still uses the 1662 BCP liturgy.<br /><br />I came to the continuum because I loved the services from the 1662 BCP that I grew up with in the old Methodist Hymnal. But, I didn't even get the Book of Common Prayer at all. Instead, they use the Missal and it just isn't the same.<br /><br />The additions in the Missal just ruin what was a beautiful liturgy in its own merits.<br /><br />I truly think the only place left to find a real Anglican Church is the UECNA (and the Chapels Royal in England), and sadly I live too far from the nearest parish to attend with the weekly regularity that I prefer.<br /><br />From what I can see, other than the UECNA, the continuing Anglicans don't want to be truly Anglican - they prefer to imitate pre-Vatican II Rome.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01838862501450304328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-69977083708555667232010-12-18T10:03:15.882-05:002010-12-18T10:03:15.882-05:00Brian -
I think it is a mistake on the part of a...Brian - <br /><br />I think it is a mistake on the part of a bishop to automatically side with a clergyman - they are as capable of messing up as other men. It also adds to the laity's frustration, which is probably why the 100,000 supporters if the original ACNA back in 1977 have evaporated to a mere 20 to 25 thousand today. Peter Nott, who was the Bishop of Norwich in the 1980s used to sy that if you wanted to lead that diocese you had to 'find out where they were going and walk in front of them.' I do not think that is entirely a Norfolk phenomomen, but clergymen should listen carefully to their lay-folks so that they can command their respect, and get everyone moving along in the same direction, and that, hopefully, to the glory of God.+ Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15593635840263637835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-28447886638829377022010-12-06T18:55:27.082-05:002010-12-06T18:55:27.082-05:00As well it should, Your Grace. One would hope the ...As well it should, Your Grace. One would hope the good gentlemen and his fellow vestry members would make an appointment with their bishop and discuss the problem with him.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-56129597804538594412010-12-06T13:37:41.327-05:002010-12-06T13:37:41.327-05:00Thanks for your kind and concerned replies. At lea...Thanks for your kind and concerned replies. At least I now know that I am right to be concerned. <br /><br />To be quite plain, I am sure the priest is not taking money for his own use or in any way being dishonest, but I don't believe he should spend church funds and authorize labor and work to be done to the church on his own.<br /><br />If it were not for the fact that I signed (I wish now I hadn't) the mortgage for the church building, I would have dropped out long ago. I feel like I need to at least attend once in a while to keep a tab that the mortgage payments are being made.<br /><br />I know that in anything the Bishop will side with the priest, and not congregation, so I fear there isn't much I can do.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01838862501450304328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-12382194532616632312010-12-06T02:47:55.247-05:002010-12-06T02:47:55.247-05:00The vestry of a parish should meet a minimum of fo...The vestry of a parish should meet a minimum of four times a year. If the standard/usual bylaws are in force then the senior warden with the concurrence of two other vestry men can call a meeting and the priest cannot do a blnd thing about it. Like the UK parliament there is a fail safe, if only people are aware of it.<br /><br />I tend to advise vestries and clergy that they need to work together. There is a technical division of responsibility, but it should not be slavishly obeyed. In my own parish I never make a major liturgical decision without hearing what the vestry has to say, and they do not make major financial decisions without my being on board. The system works best by mutual trust.+ Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15593635840263637835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-80588605836805878462010-12-04T09:08:30.031-05:002010-12-04T09:08:30.031-05:00A priest should never handle the funds of the chur...A priest should never handle the funds of the church. Neither should the treasurer. Money (checks and cash) should be counted by at least two persons (none of which should be the priest or the treasurer), the funds deposited, and a copy of the deposit slip delivered to the treasurer. The treasurer only writes checks authorized by the budge or approved by the vestry as a whole. The priest only has authority to spend funds specifically allocated to him. I have never heard of a priest being able to spend parish funds as he sees fit.Fr. David F. Coadyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09626288794442976748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-86893327760656681972010-12-03T15:06:53.831-05:002010-12-03T15:06:53.831-05:00Brian,
Not knowing all the ins and outs of everyt...Brian, <br />Not knowing all the ins and outs of everything...it sounds like your vestry needs to start meeting regularly. Also, your priest is taking quite a chance doing all the money stuff himself..it would be a simple thing for an accusation of mishandling of money to come out against him..He should really take that into consideration...It might also be good to check into your church's constitution to also determine the roles of the vestry and that of the priest. I went through a hard church closing (not Anglican though) a few years ago and thankfully our pastor knew the constitution inside and out and was able to deflect some of the harsh accusations that were flying around about him which were simply not true...<br /><br />I don't know if any of this helps or maybe these are all things you have considered before, but I hope that things can be addressed reasonably in your parish.<br /><br />BTW, great article! I love your posts for their historicity and consideration of modern application!J.L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13978510948065137234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-45792896308961615612010-11-24T12:47:48.238-05:002010-11-24T12:47:48.238-05:00Thanks, Fr. Steve, for bringing this up again.
In...Thanks, Fr. Steve, for bringing this up again.<br /><br />In our congregation, we have an annual meeting in which a vestry is elected but in the last five years, there have never even been one solitary vestry meeting.<br /><br />The priest collects the offerings, deposits them, writes the checks and buys whatever he wants without ever asking the vestry, etc. We are allowed no input whatsoever! We elect a treasurer, but there are a treasurer in name only, they aren't even allowed to handle the accounts. He spends money without any consultation of the people whatsoever.<br /><br />I am to the point where I feel I can no longer give money to the congregation under these circumstances. I am seriously considering giving my tithe to a local United Methodist Church where my grandparents were members. There I know the money will be democratically and properly spent according to the Administrative Board of that congregation.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01838862501450304328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-50977787820967641912010-11-21T08:29:53.016-05:002010-11-21T08:29:53.016-05:00Excellent article Your Grace. My question is, how...Excellent article Your Grace. My question is, how do we address the issue Brian has brought up? There's a kind of synergy between the clergy in laity in the church. If one has more power than the other, then things start going badly quick. How do we strike that balance where the Priest is not overbearing, and yet is not totally beholden to the Vestry?Fr. Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16869676716891199486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-29682701716684621932010-11-18T07:07:34.749-05:002010-11-18T07:07:34.749-05:00Excellent post!
And, yes, sadly, I believe that...Excellent post! <br /><br />And, yes, sadly, I believe that Bryan's comments are all too cogent.Death Bredonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09551340241330202420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-27778000212292349582010-11-17T20:54:13.159-05:002010-11-17T20:54:13.159-05:00This is a post with which I have almost total agre...This is a post with which I have almost total agreement. The episcopal office has frequently been molded by both time and circumstance, but we as Anglicans should find our model for same in two places. The first would be in the solid tradition of the prayer books and then in the apostolic and sub-apostolic church. If we do our best to live up to these models, I don't think that we shall go wrong.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-78166898312729987932010-11-16T06:55:28.461-05:002010-11-16T06:55:28.461-05:00Absolutely excellent. We can only hope that this w...Absolutely excellent. We can only hope that this will be heeded.Canon Tallishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05182884929479435751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294180508947136086.post-54997161337708320532010-11-15T11:22:48.804-05:002010-11-15T11:22:48.804-05:00Well written and well considered article. Consider...Well written and well considered article. Considering the author to be a bishop himself makes it all the more meaningful.<br /><br />It would be wrong, however, to assert that the problem of "prelacy" is only in TEC. While not all Continuing Anglican bishops are guilty of this, some certainly are guilty of "prelacy."<br /><br />Sadly, I have also experienced lots of unhealthy attitudes of clericalism among some Continuing Anglican clergy, who try to rule a parish in a matter of "pay and obey", leaving the laity who pay all the bills and signed the mortgage, guaranteeing it with their own personal assets, with absolutely no say whatsoever in the church building, furnishings, etc.<br /><br />The day is fast approaching when I believe many laity, including myself, will stop paying.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01838862501450304328noreply@blogger.com